Mon, 4 May 1998 Hi,My name is ***** I live in Melbourne Australia, All I can say about yourpage is WOW !!!! you are a real champion. Me and my wife were involved in amway a few years ago and we like you at the start thought that all our financial worries will be over in a short time. I am very glad that those stupid mindbending tapes didn't have the effect on my mind as our upline would have liked them to have, as for the seminars all I can say is that I didn't take too kindly to watching some so called highly respected businessman totally and utterly hypnotise a bunch of brainwashed bunnies, the tapes and seminars were the biggest thorn in my side I couldn't understand why these two were the main ingredients to a successful amway career but luckily I evaluated the whole business with an open mind and I can't thank my sceptic side enough, Anyway I'm not going to carry on about our BAD !!!!!! very BAD !!!!!!!experience with amway in this letter, if you would be interested in our amway venture I would be more than happy to give you a detailed report.
It's very nice and comforting to see educated people such as yourself takingyour time to try and enlighten people around the world about the amway clan.I have my own ceramic tiling business and my wife ***** is back at Unistudying Psychology, wouldn't it be funny if I had to listen to motivational tapes on tiles and glue for my business to function properly hey I'm no where close to being a millioneer but I can go to sleep every night in comfort knowing that I don't have to loose my family and friends because of the business I'm in.
I have better end this cos otherwise I will be typing for a long time,hopefully you can give me the pleasure of doing so in my future e-mails toyou.Looking forward to your reply I have bookmarked your page and will bevisiting it regularly. All the best..........
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www.suburbia.net/~fun/amway/comment3.htmHello from down under, I couldn't agree more about untold truths During my time as an Amway distributor(if you could call it that, its more like spend a small fortune on tapes,books and boring meetings) I was expected to attend ALL meetings, spend money on tapes books and boring meetings. I was even expected to leave my job to set up meetings with possible new distributors and show them the plan with my sponsor and upline. The final straw that broke the camels back was being sworn at for being late to a team phone call. These team phone calls almost cost me my employment.With Amway all they see is AMWAY, AMWAY AMWAY. They don't even tell you it's amway when they try to get you to join!I t's happened to me twice. The second time was to see if it was Amway.
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www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Amway/AUS/commen10.htm
Sidney,
Your web page is full of interesting information. I was an Amway distributor in Melbourne, Australia for about 1 year. I didn't have much success as a distributor, and it wasn't through lack of enthusiasm. I ended up quitting because 1. I got sick of my 'upline' forcing the tape of the week, book of the month, seminars, functions etc. on me. 2. I wasn't making ANY money! I was spending WAY more money on the 'essentials' than there was money coming in. They pointed out that if I wanted to succeed in 'the business' that I needed to plug into successful minds, at a cost of course. They were very encouraging, however I didn't realize that they were profiting greatly from their little distribution business on the side. They seemed such great friends, but of course, when you become inactive, they don't want to know you at all. Good friends?
As far as the cult question goes, I have never seen anything quite like it before in my life. I was in awe, but you eventually get swept up in the excitement. I did attend a function featuring Dexter Yager, Bert Gulick etc... I couldn't believe the crowd. They (we) were going absolutely wild when these guys were introduced. To be quite honest, my initial thoughts were that it just like the Nazis saluting to Hitler! In hindsight, I'm sure they (the upline) make a tremendous amount of money from these functions and all the other 'dreaming' stuff. I guess I know why these guys were so excited to see our money, I mean us. I guess I learned some good people skills from this experience, but I lost a lot of good friends in the process.
HI FROM AUSTRALIA!
INTERESTING READING THIS CLASS ACTION. WE WERE INVOLVED IN THE YAGER SYSTEM IN AUSTRALIA FOR A PERIOD OF 4 1/2 YEARS. WE REACHED DIRECT LEVEL IN 14THS AND QUALIFIED THROUGH UNTIL END OF FISCAL YEAR AUGUST 1995. AFTER 4 YEARS OF MAKING NO MONEY AFTER EXPENSES WE SOLD OFF OUR BUSINESS TO OUR UPLINE.
WE BROKE 3 SEPARATE SILVER LEGS AND ONE DIRECT LEG. HOWEVER WE DID NOT MAKE ANY MONEY AFTER 'NORMAL' EXPENSES OF ATTENDING FUNCTIONS DRAWING PLANS AND TRAVELLING THROUGHOUT AUSTRALIA TO 'BUILD THE BUSINESS'. IT TOOK ME FOUR YEARS TO WORK OUT THE INCOME PRODUCED BY DIAMONDS AND ABOVE FROM THE TAPES, BOOKS AND FUNCTIONS SOLD TO DISTRIBUTORS. WE WERE A PARTY TO THE'BREAK' ON TAPES AND WAS EXPLAINED THAT THIS WAS TO COVER OUR EXPENSES INCURRED IN DISTRIBUTING THE MATERIAL. THE SMALL BREAK NEVER COVERED OUR OWN EXPENSES. I FINALLY DID SOME MATHS AND WORKED OUT WHO WAS MAKING ALL THE MONEY.
INTERESTING OUR TAPE TURNOVER EACH FINANCIAL YEAR WAS ALMOST THE SAME AS OUR AMWAY PRODUCT TURNOVER. I FINALLY WORKED OUT SOMEONE WAS MAKING A FORTUNE OUT OF THE TAPES, FUNCTIONS AND IT WAS NEVER GOING TO BE US.
OBVIOUSLY I HAVE BUSINESS RECORDS TO BACK UP WHAT I SAY
MY WIFE AND I LIVE IN QUEENSLAND (AUSTRALIA), WE HAVE ONLY JUST RESIGNED OUR DISTRIBUTOSHIP FROM AMWAY, AFTER NEARLY THREE YEARS. IF ONLY I HAD OPENED MY EYES EARLIER, LISTENED TO MY WONDERFUL WIFE, BUT I WAS CAUGHT UP IN THE SYSTEM. THAT IS THE SYSTEM OF I.D.A......TAPES, BOOKS, SEMINARS, FUNCTIONS ETC...IT WENT ON AND ON. I HAD SUCH A BELIEF FROM OUR SPONSORS, THAT THEY CARED AND LOVED US AND EVERYTHING WOULD BE SO ROSY, JUST BELIEVE AND USE THE SYSTEM. HOW WONDERFUL THIS WAS, $6.00 A WEEK FOR A TAPE - $4.00 A WEEK FOR OPEN MEETINGS - $12.00 A MONTH FOR A SEMINAR - $90 - $120 TWICE A YEAR FOR A MAJOR FUNCTION...(YES YOU HAD TO BE AT THE FUNCTIONS, YOU NEEDED IT, YOUR FAMILY NEEDS IT, IF YOU WISH TO SUCCEED THEN YOU HAVE TO BE THERE......NO MATTER THE COST TO YOU FINANCIALY, OR PERSONALLY).
WHEN I STARTED AMWAY, I HELD A GOOD MANAGEMENT POSITION IN THE HOSPITALITY INDUSTRY, AND CLIMBING FUTHER UP THE LADDER, STUDYING FOR MY DIPLOMA IN HUMAN RECOURSES MANAGEMENT, ATTAINED MY WORKPLACE HEALTH & SAFETY ACCREDITATION, A MEMBER OF THE AUSTRALIAN INSTITUTE OF MANAGEMENT. BUT MY SPONSOR IS A PROFFESIONAL BANKER....I SHOULD LISTEN TO WHAT HE SAYS. AFTER THE FIRST TWELVE MONTHS (MY OUTGOINGS FAR EXCEEDED THE INCOMMINGS IN AMWAY/I.D.A.). I STEPPED DOWN FROM MY MANAGEMENT POSITION, TO A LOWER POSITION, AFTER ALL I NEEDED MORE TIME TO SHOW THE PLAN, MOST OF ALL I WAS TOLD I NEEDED TO ATTEND MORE FUNCTIONS AND SEMINARS. THE SECOND YEAR YES IT GOT WORSE, MY STRESS LEVEL WENT UP, I DID NOT HAVE TIME FOR MY FAMILY, I DID NOT LISTEN TO MY WIFE. OUR FINANCIAL STANDING WAS NOT LOOKING THE BEST....BUT I BELIEVED YES I BELIEVED....WE ARE GOING DIAMOND!!!! BUY MORE TAPES! AND MORE TAPES! AND MORE TAPES! YES I WAS IN DEEP, I BELIEVED, I WAS ANOTHER SUCKER ON THE LIST, THE NEXT IN LINE.
NO MATTER WHO I TALKED TO, THE ONLY SUBJECT WAS AMWAY AND I.D.A....BUT NO- BODY WOULD KNOW THAT UNTIL I GOT INTO THEIR LIVIN ROOMS AND HOUSES TO SHOW THE PLAN. YES LADIES AND GENTLEMEN A TWO - FIVE YEAR PLAN AND YOU CAN BE FINANCIALLY SECURE. BE YOUR OWN BEST CUSTOMER...THE ONLY TIME I EVER HEARD PRODUCTS OF AMWAY MENTIONED, WAS WHEN YOU COULD NOT AFFORD A TAPE OR GO TO A SEMINAR, THEN GO SELL SOMETHING (OH! REALLY! WE CAN DO THAT?).
MY WIFES BIRTHDAY, I HAD ARRANGED SOMETHING VERY SPECIAL FOR HER. A MAJOR LEADERSHIP FUNCTION WAS ON THE SAME NIGHT....OH YES DID I GET HASSLED, BECAUSE I THOUGHT MORE OF MY WIFE THEN GOING TO THIS LEADERSHIP FUNCTION. THE HARRASEMENT WENT ON FROM PHONE CALL FROM OUR DIRECTS, LECTURES FROM OUR DIAMOND DIRECTS. THE WHOLE PLOT STARTED TO SMELL, SOMETHING WAS NOT RIGHT....YOU CARE FOR SOMEONE YOU CARE ABOUT THEIR CHOICES AND DESISIONS IN LIFE, YOU CARE ABOUT THE LOVE THEY SHOW FOR THEIR FAMILY.
MY WIFE TRIED TO TELL ME SO MANY TIMES, WHAT WAS HAPPANING, MY LIFE WAS AMWAY AND I.D.A., MY FAMILY CAME SECOND. I WAS DRIFTING AWAY, YES I WAS, MY FAMILY WAS ALWAYS THEIR, I HASSLED MY WIFE TO ATTEND THESE SEMINARS AND FUNCTIONS. BUT I GUESS SHE HAD MORE BRAINS, SHE WAS NOT IN THE CULT! NOW YES WE HAVE RESIGNED OUR DISTRIBUTORSHIP, I FINALLY SAW THE LIGHT, I WOKE UP TO WHAT WAS HAPPENING. I QUESTIONED MY UPLINE DIRECTS, THE ANSWERS WERE NOT IMPRESSIVE.
MY FAMILY LIFE IS BACK TO IT'S WONDERFUL LOVING WAY, I LOVE AND THANK MY WIFE FOR BEING WITH ME AND KNOWING THAT I WOULD COME WHEN I WOULD SEE THE TRUTH. MY CAREER IS BACK ON PATH.....NEXT YEAR (1997) I ENTER INTO A HUMAN RECOURSES MANAGEMENT POSITION WITH THE SAME COMPANY, MY STUDIES ARE AT FULL BORE CATCHING UP, YES EVERYTHING IS WONDERFUL IN OUR FAMILY. THE ONLY BLACK HOLE LEFT, IS THE FINANCIAL SITUATION. $9,000.00 TO PAY ON OUR CREDIT CARD....WHAT A FOOL I WAS. WE WILL REACH THE TOP, I WILL SEND POSTCARDS TO OUR EX-DIRECTS. BUT IT WILL HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH AMWAY OR I.D.A.
ALL I HAVE TO SAY IS WHAT EVER COUNTRY YOU LIVE IN - IF YOU ARE INVITED TO A BUSINESS MEETING.....ASK ONE QUESTION - IS IT AMWAY? IF THE PERSON DOES NOT ANSWER YOU STRAIGHT BY - YES IT IS, OR NO IT IS NOT. LOOK BEFORE YOU LEAP
PEOPLE IN AMWAY, WILL SAY THIS IS NONSENSE (I SAID IT), I AM TALKING FROM EXPERIENCE. I AM PAYING THE CREDIT CARD, I HAVE A GARAGE WITH MORE TAPES THEN I KNOW WHAT TO DO WITH, I HAVE ATTENDED MORE SEMINARS AND FUNCTIONS THEN HAD HOT BREAKFASTS. YES I WAS ONE OF THEM........BUT NOW I AM SO HAPPY.....ALL I CAN SAY IS, TO MY WONDERFUL SWEET WIFE, THANKYOU FOR BELIEVING IN ME, THANKYOU FOR YOUR PATIENCE.... MY SWEET WIFE.....I LOVE YOU BULK!!!!!!!!!
THANKYOU FOR YOUR TIME.........................................
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Sidney
I'm amazed by the amount of material about Amway on the net. I thought I'd run out of stuff, then I came across the newsgroups. We are a couple from Australia in the Yager system and have been involved for two years now. We have been very quiet for about a year. We went reasonably gung-ho at the beginning (go- getters) attending all functions, tape of the week and completely plugged into the SYSTEM. "I decided to zip my pants up at the front" and was removed from my own conventional business by my partner six months into Amway.
We have just finalised these proceedings with an out of court settlement and that part of life was completed on the 1 Dec 1996. My involvement in Amway did at least give me a spine but if I had realised the legal proceedings (the Canadian fraud case) the Amway business had been involved with I wouldn't have become a distributor. I have a strong belief in business ethics. That was the main cause of the dispute with my business partner.
Don't get me wrong, I believe most of the people I've had dealings with in our upline are fine people, but I believe a corporations ethics is greatly defined by it's leaders. Our direct (who took 8 years to get there) is a wonderful man, but even at that stage I don't think he was making a fortune after costs.
The internet has taken off like a house on fire in this country and since I've heard stories of numbers declining, I'm wondering if it is partly due to the influence of this and other similar sites. I wish, like many others that I had had access to this information two years ago.
We had always suspected that the system was a great money spinner for someone at the top but this was generally denied. My wife used to pick up one bottle of shampoo and there would always be thirty dollars worth of incidentals nearly every time. So the bills certainly started to mount up to the tune of a few thousand a year on the system. With two small children, the baby sitting costs along with the system expenses, prompted our decision to quit and set up another conventional business with an honest business partner who I've known for many years.
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About a month and a half ago, I noticed in passing that the ATO (Australian Taxation Office) has tightened the laws on Amway distributors as most of them were claiming them as a tax loss.
I believe the new laws mean they can only claim "The Business" as a loss for up to two years, but you'd have to verify this with the ATO.
Having been a distributor, I also had noticed the religious fervour that distributors exhibited. It seems it doesn't matter how often you "Show The Plan" in Australia, the only ones who will sign up are those with an over active imagination, and are ripe to be preyed on (such as I used to be).
Despite being assured that I'd receive help from my upline, I found them to only be available when it came time to collect money from me for meetings.
One benefit from having been a distributor is that I always check the fine print of any document, and will only sign it after 24 hrs of perusing, reading and digesting the information in it.
To all those who detract from your efforts with these pages, just let me say "Wake up and smell the coffee". You Americans are so self righteous when it comes to the right of "freedom of speech" only as long as that speech conveys the same beliefs as your own. Fine, I couldn't make the business work, I just don't know as many suckers as you successful distributors.
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Greetings Mr Schwartz, My name is * and I am a former distributor in Australia, and I was part of the Yager system. I would just like to briefly share an experience with you. At the time I was 21 and had a group of about fifteen people, and I was touted as a young turk in my particular organisation. One evening after a major function, I confronted my upline Pearl Direct about the tapes and the money involved. He took me aside and said to me that if I had any brains, I would work out that that is where the money is. It reached a point thereafter through disillusionment, concern, a lack of focus...whatever you like to call it, where my momentum slowed and reality set in. Friends of mine were "blowing out" and through personal integrity I wore the cost of the countless tools they had been loaded with over a relatively short period of time. I believe that the entire experience over 2-3 years would have cost me $10,000 in tools, functions, travel, coffees, meetings etc.
I must be honest though, in saying that I did benefit from various experiences, mainly motivational, and in fairness, my current success in the financial planning industry (Diamond income equivalent after two years - $150,000pa) has had something to do with my time in the business.
Scott
I happened upon your site just recently. I was a, what I would call, semi-active Amway distributor in New Zealand and Australia for around four years.
I was part of the "Yager" system of tapes, books & functions, and eventually decided that I'd spent enough money.
I never realized that so much of the Emerald and Diamond income came from the system tools. I could never understand why I wasn't making any money - now I see why! Your site has certainly been an eye-opener.
I would like to congratulate you on the presentation of your site, and the sheer volume of information it contains. It is relatively straightforward for anyone to follow, and highlights some serious doubts in Amway's (Quixtar/Alticor/a2k in Australia & NZ) future success if nothing is done to curb the activities of unscrupulous high-pin distributors.
The responses you received from Messrs. Carrillo & Loupelle bring no great surprises as they obviously have very large incomes at stake should Amway put the clamps on.
Keep up the good work
Regards
Mark
We are no longer active in the amway system - SEPARATION & FREEDOM HAS BEEN ACHIEVED.
The following took place over a ten year period and I have tried to condense it yet communicate the essence of the whole saga. I hope that this helps someone avoid the pain, personal and financial stress that occurs with Amway and IDA.
FROM AUSTRALIA - We joined back in '93 in the IDA, Yager system and got off to a rapid start - we did all the things suggested Books, tapes, functions and showed the plan to anything that was breathing . . . We achieved success to the level of quicksilver, which is 5 personally sponsored and 10 more in depth under those 5. At this point I would like to say that I was having a successful career as an awarding winning photographer but had seen the long term potential of some residual income instead of being a decrepit old photographer. We had just moved into a fairly prestigious house on 1.5 acres and were doing quite well.
What followed in the years to come was a night mare . . .
My boss got wind of the fact that I was involved in Amway and offered me 2 options - accept a demotion or leave. mmm. Too late now I had the bug bad and believed that I would make more money from Amway anyway so what the hell... I told him to keep his J.O.B. (Amway talk for Just Over Broke) Started my own photography business on the advice of upline Emerald, you need to counsel about these things, so we did, and quickly found out that we actually did not have the operating capital to do so. Anyway this lead to digging into the equity in our house and
the whole time running around showing plans and earning new and higher pins! To make this story shorter, about 2 years later we ended up in a bad financial position because all our focus was on Amway, not the bank, my photographic career, the kids etc etc etc
So we had to sell our dream home and move back to the burbs, into a house that was 1 bedroom short etc, which we did with the attitude that sometimes you have to take a step back to take a step forward ( more cliches from our upline leaders, fountains of knowledge and success that they are .. . ) The whole time continuing to build the business because it was "the answer, grasshopper,,,,,," Anyway, while living in this house we got excited and put a contract on a block of land and again to cut a long story short, this ended in disaster as we were unable to finance it and the land developer ended up suing us for breach of contract and, ] you guessed it, we had to sell this house to buy the land. mmmm. Now we owned a block of land and had to rent a house, the slide downhill could hardly get worse.
The whole time we were showing the plan - "you'll make it just keep going" During this whole period of about 3 years we had achieved some moderate success, up to 15% pin (3250PV), with the normal situation of distributors falling out the bottom of the funnel as quick as we were putting them in the top. Anyway, still trying to make some money in photography, I bought into a franchise business and worked at this for 2 years more while still travelling up up to 2,000klm a month driving interstate to build the Amway business ALL at the same time.
This whole time we are living in a less than desirable rented house but "once you make it all will be OK . . . ." You guessed it, 2 years in that photography franchise we managed to accumulate about $35,000 in debt, the franchisor still got his 50% of the cash flow but by the time we paid the marketing, rent, phone, electricity, schools etc, we were just going backwards. I believe this was because our total focus was on Amway the other STUFF in life just flows over you until you get a wake up call like THE BANK, you owes us $$$$$$$$$$$ and the only asset you have now is this land.
During this turbulent period we actually did manage to go SILVER (7,500 PV or 21% bonus level), kept a cheque that month for about $2,000 and never had that volume again - so much for ongoing income, If I could have in the bank every cent we spent on TAPES, BOOKS, FUNCTIONS AND PRODUCTS, I would have had enough to pay this damn $35,000 and some left to actually take the kids on a holiday.
It was about this time that my little brain said - ENOUGH Amway, deep down I had known it for a while but who wants to be a Quitter, a Looser .. m mm m
So we withdrew from Amway and THE SYSTEM at this point.
You guessed it, we had to sell the land and pay all the equity to the bank, BUT that wasn't all we still owed them and others big time - that's when we were left with the $35,000 and nothing left to sell to pay it. I had to find a normal day job working for wages and over the next 3 years worked in a variety of positions within Sales and the IT industry with my wife also going back to full time work to start on the road to repay all these people the money that was owed.
We had a windfall inheriting half a house during this period, and actually managed to save some money while paying off the debts and took the whole family on a 4 week Holiday to the USA. This is a lifetime memory for us and WOULD NEVER HAD BEEN ALLOWED if we were in THE SYSTEM and counseled upline about it. Guess where that money would have gone . . . . .
You guessed it - into building my upline pockets, sorry I meant, building the business - NOT that I'm bitter and twisted at all.
We are only just now getting the last of these debts cleared and starting to have a life again - the whole ordeal has been about TEN years. A decade of our life off on a misguided path . . .
For the last 12 months I have been selling real estate which was something that I have wanted to do for a long time and the opportunity came up and I grabbed it and it is finally starting to pay dividends, this time I am focussed on the career and not being distracted by Amway. My wife has also secured a job in Real Estate as an Admin Manager and is earning excellent money.
We have chosen to get on with life - normal JOBS, normal holidays, normal houses, normal family, normal friends ----- and it ain't half bad either.
I am just glad that our marriage managed to survive this ordeal! WARNING -
THINK VERY CAREFULLY BEFORE POURING YOUR ENERGY, FOCUS & FUNDS INTO THIS VENTURE YOU MAY NOT LIKE THE JOURNEY AND THE RECOVERY COULD BE HAZARDOUS TO YOUR FAMILY, PARTNER AND BANK ACCOUNT.
How do we know this ???? SOME NOTES -
Diamond Kicked Out -
During this period in the Amway business, we put up with an upline Diamond that was dishonest, corrupt, unethical and downright nasty. The Yager system protects these uplines with the - NO DE-EDIFICATION RULE, NO NEGATIVE DOWNLINE and the NO CROSS-LINING RULE
We have a Diamond who is actually making their own tools (tapes and duplicating IDA tapes illegally, books, literature) and fleecing everyone in our group anytime they get near them. Leaving $400/$500 worth of tools with people who couldn't afford them and then harassing them for the money. And here we are in a position where we can't say anything negative downline, we can't de-edify our upline Diamond and we can't discuss this with other HUMAN BEINGS in other legs who may be experiencing the same horrors . . . . ..
During our last 12 months active in the business, we complained to Amway about this misconduct and dozens of people, good people, within our business also complained directly to Amway .. . . AND You guessed it - We were not alone - apparently 5 other legs also were in process of complaining about the misconduct - who would have known, remember NO CROSSLINING.
The short story is that Amway, after a mammoth battle, actually REMOVED them - they are no more, never to grace the shores of Amway again BUT You guessed it - they are now the highest Australian pin in MELALEUCA - I thought what goes around - comes around, not yet anyway.
Diamond Divorce and then one forced out
Also the best upline diamond we had, a successful man prior to the Amway system, ends up divorced with his wife taking over the Diamond business and it appears that he was squeezed out by the big upline Yager Diamond here in Australia and the Amway corporation itself.
That was also a nail in the coffin for us - we admired this man for his vision and achievements and when he was forced OUT of the business by Amway that was it for us. I still have contact with this man and in fact mentor with him. He has been massively successful outside of Amway with his own National company turning over tens of millions each year. What a loss to Amway and all the people that are still in there.
A 10 year Emerald - still working and still not Diamond?????????
An upline Emerald ( has been Emerald for at least 10 years) is still working a normal day job like everyone else. After 10 years with an emerald income how is this possible - maybe the income that is promoted is false . .mmmm... After 10 years at the Emerald level - dripping with credibility, how is it that he has not gone Diamond . . . If some one who has achieved at this high level can't move to Diamond what chance do we plebs have that have no credibility at all .. . m m mm .. . .good question eh!
DON'T . ....................
DON'T Associate with anyone negative - (read that as - only talk to Amway upline and downline) One tape by the great Bert Gulick (Executive Diamond) - Tape called "Habits" -- says that "if you family and relatives are negative - Don't have anything to do with them for at least 30 days - disassociate yourself with them - DON'T listen to the NEWS on the radio or TV - (if it's bad enough you'll find out anyway - it's just negative stories which won't help at all)
Don't keep doing what you've been doing OR you'll get what you've got - I applied this to the Amway business after 10 years of doing it! I guess this little saying backfired on them - I certainly didn't want what I got there so I thought I better stop
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