Tuesday, June 24, 2008

Amway Australia Business Centres

Amway Australia has opened its Business Centre in Sydney with Melbourne and Brisbane to come. What are the Business Centres designed to do? We'll let an email from Amway Australia (reposted here: http://www.webraw.com/quixtar/forum/viewtopic.php?p=73214&highlight=#73214 ) provide the answer.
We noticed this ad for a Retail Sales Assistant for the Business Centre:

"Drawing on your previous retail exposure, demonstrate your top-notch selling/merchandising skills and provide second-to-none customer service that promotes a positive shopping experience every contact."

So, if Mr Joe Public walks in off the street and decides to buy the $68 SA8 3kg Laundry Powder, the $31 Shaving Gel and $122 Double X Vitamins (we kid you not, these are the actual retail prices) from said Retail Sales Assistant, then WHO gets the commission, if any, on the sale?
Do any IBO's get a cut of it (and how) or does Amway Australia retain the profits, hence undercutting it's distributor force by selling directly to the public?
If anyone knows the answer to this question, please feel free to enlighten us.

Saturday, June 21, 2008

Amway Australia - A Call for Transparency

Another extremely interesting blog post has been made by Orrin Woodward (ex-Quixtar Diamond) on his blog, see here:
Some very enlightening comments have been made, particularly those from current Australian IBO's. And in particluar this comment, which we've reposted below:
"Re: Amway Australia Leadership Challenge

by Anonymous on Fri 20 Jun 2008 09:27 PM EDT Permanent Link

Hi Orrin.
I am the person who wrote the original article "outing" Amway Australia. I am very curious to see what has been said by others in response.
I would like to comment on IBO Fightback's comment.
In my original post I requested that people contact Amway Australia Management. You can ring them on 02 9843 2000. Ask for Amway Legal or the acting CEO, Mr Coldwell. (The previous CEO, Peter Williams resigned in April 2008 - did someone see the writing on the wall - under his guidance Amway Australia is sliding backwards, fast)
Why believe the data on Amway Wiki? How does IBO Fightback verify the comments on Amway Wiki???
I am not interested in the comments by a website - that website is no more valid than me saying 78% of Amway Diamonds in Australia re-qualify every year & make an average income of $375,000.
Just as a side issue, Amway Australia will not pay you a Diamond bonus if you have international legs. The SIP (Sales Incentive Performance) bonuses are paid on Australian legs. How many people are Diamonds in the Australian market - IE: they have 6 qualified - in country legs?
So again I repeat my original post: "Get the transparent facts". (I have one additional question to ad to the list) Before you go on building the Amway Australia business find out the following:
1. How many Diamonds qualified between 1985-2007 have re-qualified more than once. How many Emeralds, How many Saphires, How many Rubies? - this goes to the heart of the issue - is the business model sustainable?
2. What is the turnover rate on average for a Diamond group?
3. What is the average income made by a Qualified Diamond in Australia? How many years did the average Diamond take to achieve this income.
4. What is the Amway Australia sales volume for each year 1985 - 2007? In real $.
Lets stop the internet chat in its tracks. I am not asking anyone to believe or verify my questions with "further fake data" - I want all current, former & intending IBO's with Amway Australia to become aware or the THE TRANSPARENT FACTS.
Email, ring or arrange a meeting with Amway Australia management. Go and get these very simple & worthwhile questions answered. Then post the answers on Amway Wiki - then post them here.
Post the names of all those who are currently qualified & all of the names for each year: 1985-2007 who qualified. Amway want IBO's to be transparent - well now we want them to be just as transparent. Their own website says "money, time & lifestyle" let them prove it.
I challenge someone else to do this investigative work & report back. That way someone cannot claim that I am faking the results , just to prove my version of reality.
I am so confident that the results of this investigation - that I will let an outsider investigate my claims & report back.
The claims will be catastrophic - as I said originally - once you have the THE TRANSPARENT FACTS FROM AMWAY AUSTRALIA - YOU WOULD HAVE TO BE AN IDIOT TO KEEP BUILDING IT.
If any commentator is confident that my questions will be answered with data that reflects Amway Australia as a positive, profitable & successful business experience - then I will issue a retraction.
My article is written out of deep concern for Amway IBO's & those intending to sign up in Amway. I am an insider - I know what has gone on behind the scenes, I know who is not re-qualified even at the Diamond, Emerald, Saphire & platinum levels. I have been on many, many, many Australian Leadership Seminars with Amway Australia.
I have sat around & chatted with key leaders in Amway Australia. I have deep concern that people are filled with a "fake" promise of long term success, by those who still hold out hop that they can make significant money. This is the only reason many people buy Amway product - PV.
I am looking forward to seeing THE TRANSPARENT FACTS. I challenge all commentators to contact Amway Australia report back to this website."
We are pleased that the spotlight has somewhat now been turned on to Australian Amway business and that IBO's are having their say. Our reply to the abovementioned comment pretty much sums it up.
"Thank you Anon for speaking out and revealing your truth as how you see Amway Australia. The Australian public and in particular, the Australian IBO's (current and potential) have been kept in the dark for far too long as to the state of the Amway business here.

We, at our blog have also been calling for true transparency in regards to Yearly Sales Numbers, Numbers of IBO's, Average Earnings, Retention/Attrition rates etc. We agree too, that how can anyone perform their due diligence as to whether the Amway "business opportunity" is a viable (and profitable) venture to commit to without such vital information.

For any current or potential Australian IBO's out there reading this, we also implore you to find out the cold hard facts from Amway Australia. We also invite you to submit your comments, stories, results of your research and any other information to our blog as well.

Thank you Orrin for taking an interest and concern in the goings on of Amway Australia and bringing it to attention via your blog. Silence, secrecy, deception, unaccountability and lack of transparency and information has reigned supreme here, we hope that with further dialogue and input from the public continues, so that the Truth can finally see the light of day".

Saturday, June 7, 2008

Amway Australia - Termination Letters??

A very interesting article has appeared on the blog of an ex Quixtar/Amway Diamond, Orrin Woodward, who was terminated/resigned from Quixtar last year and has since joined Monavie. Orrin had this to say the Australian Diamonds leaving Amway for Monavie and in particular, the Stat Dec that Amway wanted the qualifiers for the Mediterranean cruise to sign:

http://orrinwoodward.blogharbor.com/blog/_archives/2008/6/4/3728455.html#comments

Which saw this comment submitted in reply:

"Re: Amway Australia Family Loyalty Oaths
by Anonymous on Thu 05 Jun 2008 06:48 PM EDT Permanent Link


I have close knowledge of the letter sent to more than just the Australian Diamonds. There have now been additional letters threatening "termination" rule 3.19 - based on "alledged" involvement in Monavie. No due dilligence, no facts, just alledged. It also stated in the letter that the names & phone numbers of your group are Amway intellectual property. You cannot use them for anything but Amway. We get tehm the people & they own them. IBOs of good standing for 20+ years are being terminated based on a rumour. Before you keep going in Amway you should think about the impact of your effort & how quickly your money can be cut off by the legal department"


The next comment submitted had some remarkable, but not really surprising to us, tidbits of info disclosed, which became the focus of his next post: http://orrinwoodward.blogharbor.com/blog/_archives/2008/6/6/3731765.html

Now we must stress that we do not know if the information disclosed is 100% true and accurate. We would also like someone to confirm or deny it, until then it's all heresay to us and so we're taking it with a grain of salt.
We'll keep you posted if or when further information comes to light.

Thursday, June 5, 2008

Amway - Website Links & Resources

Below is a list of links to various websites, articles and videos relating to Amway and MLM's in general.


Amway/Quixtar Websites

http://www.amquix.info/amway.html


Various Articles & Video


ATO - Amway Distributors Administrative Position - http://www.ato.gov.au/corporate/content.asp?doc=/content/amway.htm

1983 Rich DeVos Directly Speaking Transcripts -

1983 Internal Memo by Ed Postma - Amway Business Conduct Manager -
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Amway/postma-memo-1983.html

2004 Dateline NBC Report -

Quixtar Response to Dateline Report - http://www.quixtarresponse.com

Amway Testimonials - Perspectives from Friends, Family, Loved Ones, Workmates & General

Continuing on with transferring the testimonials from the site to here, below are some testimonials (pre-2007) found on various sites from either friends, loved ones, workmates etc of IBO's and comments from the general public. Links to original sources included.


http://www.suburbia.com.au/~fun/amway/commen12.htm

You only have to read the Australian June 17 edition of Business Review Weekly, which headlined on the front page, "Amway fights agent exodus". Inside it started by saying that the number of Australians who sell Amway products has dropped by more than 30 percent since 1992-93.

That's huge. Yet the company itself is still making top dollar. OK so they have now changed the bonus incentives, so you don't have to have as many points, but that's to late for thousands of Australians who have been built up with huge dreams and then let down with the reality.

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www.suburbia.com.au/~fun/amway/commen44.htm

Very interesting stuff you have on Amway. I suspected a rat behind the so called amway training and motivation. If a product cannot sell itself, then there is either a problem with the product or the organisation. We have the same problem in Perth, Western Australia. People acting as self destructing lemmings, rather than using their intellegence and costing the business structure. It does not require much intellegence to realise that the major cost is the labour component. It takes four years to train an apprentice to become a tradesman, and three to five years to obtain a university degree. Then you start learning about your profession. If you listen to the negative motivational Amway hyp, then it is impossible for Bill Gates of Microsoft to exist. At least Microsoft, employs real people in real jobs. Amway is a pretend job selling a pretend idea. Wealth is not measured by money. It is the intangables in life that counts. Good health, good friends, quality time with your family, freedom of speech, the public library education. The Amway family will never be a genuine relationship. As I told one of the Amway uplines " If you put the amount of effort and time that you place in Away, into any vocation or business of your choice, then you will be successful. I for one am not interested in earning an income the Amway way. The people I have met in Amway are only users and negative motivators.

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www.amway.robinlionheart.com/commen60.htm
Great site

Amway is alive and well in Australia, using various alias' and claims of internet expansions.
What amazes me is the simple mathematics that these so called business operators cant seem to grasp Assuming that each Amway agent recruits just 7 active members who in turn recruit 7 more each, etc etc How many layers will be needed to recruit every man women and child on the planet (pop= 6 bil) ? Answer = less than 12 levels (11.57...) The more people recruited at each level the more frightening the numbers become. Its the business equivalent of a chain letter.
Is the motivational angle of Amway worthwhile? Yes! How else can you explain the failure of people to see fucking obvious. Pity they cant use all that energy to produce something worthwhile for humanity other than generic branded groceries.

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http://www.amquix.info/feedback/feedback_april01.html

Hi Scott.

Just thought I'd write in with my experiences. Down in Australia, we have to put up with A2K. Associated people, when pushed, flatly deny that it is in any way linked to Amway, until you put it to them that even the name stands for "Amway 2000".

They are no where near the organized sort of crew that you guy seem to have. When approached at the local McDonalds by a smoking man and asked "oi bro... wanna make some quick cash" I was certain he was referring to drug running, and almost called the police.
I ended up in a meeting with the guy. My technical background (I work at a large ISP) was how I knew not to get involved. You see the web site (www.a2k.com.au) runs on Win32 Apache, which even its creators say doesn't work very well. They advise not using it on any important web sites and, more importantly, stress that it can't handle much load.

I spent the whole night looking over the statistics, and I assure you, if that web site was getting even a quarter of the hits they claimed it was, it would have keeled over and died, it's as simple as that.

The crew is a pain in the ass quick frankly. They still ring me every so often and ask if I'm "happy with my life".

What gets me the most is this concept where they seem to believe anyone who owns a credit card is a fool. It's not enough just to somehow convince themselves that they can actually live without one, but when I take my gold card and make $1500 purchases, then pay it off within a week, people who still work at McDonalds (and there are several in the 16-20 year old group I know of which do this) assure me they only work there to keep themselves from getting bored, as they don't actually have to do anything to rake in the money at Amway.
They then typically have the gall to swear to me that my work has no job security and I'm going to get fired and go broke any day now.

I've since had friends get very caught up in the group and take it personally when I talk about it, so if you want to publish this please keep my address private

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http://htmlgear.tripod.com/gw/guest/control.guest?u=dreamsteal

My ex-husband attempted to build amway for 5 years. He did everything they told him to do. He bought all the "tools" went to meetings every week, travelled to all the seminars and bought every tape they sold. He was out every night and was never home for me or our daughter. He would go straight home from work, get into a suit and "drive the miles" until at least 1.00am every morning. He would then heat his meal up in the microwave before going to bed at 2.00 and then having to rise again at 6.00am! He was totally obsessed and brainwashed. But guess what! He didn't make a cent!!! All this work, and we were getting deeper and deeper in debt. Whenever I pointed this out to him, I was dismissed as "negative" or "a Harry". Amway was like a God to him, and the diamonds were the prophets. He would reduce me to tears if I commented negatively about any of the diamonds. He would say (not in so many words) "well they are diamonds, they made it, you're nothing!". We hit 9% once but usually averaged 3%. Amway ultimately broke up our marriage and we split up after 3 years in amway. He tried building the business for another 2 years but then he finally realised that he was NOT going to get rich with it and he only lost everything that mattered to him. And guess what else happened!! He was in a car with a "prospect" when it crashed and he broke his wrist. He is no longer able to perform his normal job. Did Amway compensate him because he was building a business??? You've got to be joking. They are totally unaccountable for that, just as they are for breaking up hundreds of marriages!!!!He is now pennyless and still paying off his credit card from buying tools etc 3 years ago.Amway is an evil cult! Keep away from it!

Post October 2007 testimonials:
A couple of weeks ago a guy that works in my office joined this internet businessand has been nagging me and other workmates ever since to come to these meetings. Henever said what the business is called but having done the Amway thing many yearsago, l knew what it was straight away. Can't believe that they are still pimping the "financial freedom" 2-5 year plan and all the motivational crap to brainwash the suckers into believing that it can be achieved.

Now this young fella is all gung-ho but he's a good bloke if not naive and somewhat gullible. So I've hunted on the net and printed off some pages to give him that l found on the Amquix info site to try and open his eyes. That's where l found the link to your site. I read your story and it confirmed that the "business" has not changed much from when l was in.

Now that l've found your site l'll refer him to it as well. You haven't got any stories up yet, but l see that it's only a new site. Thanks for putting up the site and I'll send in my own horror story when l have more time.

Ex-Amway Sucker.
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Hi,

My partner (who I don't live with, we have a long distance relationship, nearly 2 years)...joined Amway as an IBO only 4 months ago. His personality has changed, to say the least. I miss my "before Amway" partner. I miss the conversations we used to have. We talked about anything & everything. Now all I hear is Amway this and Amway that or my Upline (Gosh I hate that word) said this or my Upline said that. He said to me once "We are not allowed to question our upline" I asked him, Why not? In any other business where you're investing your money - you're ENTITLED to question anything & everything to do with that business!" He didn't like that.
It's like Amway Upline is God & I musn't speak badly of him.

He doesn't watch TV anymore (I don't think they're allowed to) or read newspapers. IBO's are not allowed to look at anything "negative". It's like they are mentally & emotionally removed from the REAL WORLD. Every night he listens to books & tapes (brainwashings I call them). Rantings from American "Diamonds" who say Don't quit! Keep going! blah blah blah. Makes me feel sick just hearing their voices. I've been to 1 of the functions, tried to be supportive to my partner. It's like a church. They seem to praise & worship the Diamond(s) on stage. It doesn't seem right. His main focus now is .... future financial freedom & wealthy lifestyle.

The dreams are in his head 24/7. He talks in a happy excited dreamlike state (Amway
convince him to constantly dream, not small dreams either, huge & RIDICULOUS dreams
e.g. Ferrari, private jet, butler, mansion???!!!). At the moment they have a promotion which includes a trip to Mauritius. He says "I'm going to Mauritius! like he's already there! I feel embarassed, for him. He buys all their overpriced products & goes on about how wonderful they are because they get a return at the end of the tax year. Whatever, it's a 3% return on books &
tapes & very expensive products, e.g. $23 for a large tube of toothpaste! All I can say is - what a ripoff & everyone knows that too. I don't know how much he is spending - but I know it's a lot & that too is affecting our relationship. No money left for petrol to drive back home! He has some sort of direct debit (autopayments) going in to Amway as deposits, each week.He hasn't received any returns from the business. He told me his reason for doing this is because he's sick of being broke. I can understand that. Like me, he's a struggling single parent with 3 kids. But what gets me is...they are making him MORE broke because he MUST buy all their stuff! Amway preys on the poor or middle income earners.

They manipulate the persons mind by using their dreams as the main goal to achieve in this business. To keep a long story short, we are not together anymore. I want him to go on his ride, without me. I don't want to stay & be responsible for the guilt I will feel if he decides to quit. Four months was long enough for me. I also have a friend who's marriage ended & broken family (children)...because her husband was involved in Amway. After the divorce, she remarried. Her ex-husband has now gone back to the drink, no longer with Amway, alcoholic, and broke. Poor man has lost everything, including his pride.

Thank you Amway - for taking my partner away. I really do hate them...with all my heart.

Wednesday, June 4, 2008

Amway Testimonials - Current and Potential IBO's Part 2


Dear Scott,

A brief note, from the greatest country in the world, Australia.

Having had occasion to read some of the entries written to your site, I am reminded of the discussion I had with my upline prior to becoming a distributor.

It was stated to me in no uncertain terms that this business opportunity may be viewed as a ‘vehicle’ to generate additional income above and beyond what it was that was already being earned in the 9 to 5.

At no time was I told that there was no work involved.

At no time was I told that people would flock to me, eager to join. I was told it would be challenging. Everything was spelled out to me. I volunteered.
I was NOT forced, cajoled, blackmailed by anyone.

My partner and I determined that the worst that could happen would be that we would purchase products that can and do work well. It was made very clear that any growth instigated by us would be a voluntary action but any resulting growth would be fostered, if we so desired, to ensure proper and correct understanding of the business opportunity and the lifestyle options building it can generate.

Yes, books, tapes and meetings were strongly advocated, although, in fairness it should be emphasized that these were a voluntary program to which you can subscribe should you wish to develop the business beyond the ‘additional income stage’. What moron would keep buying tapes and books to stockpile? Get a clue…

I would be lying if I said that everything I have purchased read and/or listened to has been life changing or interesting. I don’t always subscribe to a point of view blindly, however, it can be said I believe that if more people exposed themselves to other viewpoints, they may have greater sense of their own selves to make self-determination without looking for a scapegoat, should they come up short in any aspect of their life.

I struggle to work out why persons are so frightened of and anti-social toward Amway as an entity. It is obviously a professionally run outfit (better than Pan Am, United, Enron….need I go on). At NO time have Amway ever stuffed anything up for us or our downlines. ( I cannot say the same for our utility companies or other companies with which we have had dealings). The place is populated with human beings, most of whom have at least one of the following: husbands, wives, families, homes, cars, mortgages and all the paraphernalia of modern life. NOT the big bad boogey man.

Am I a Platinum? No. We are independent business owners and users of product. As a result of people asking, we are able to provide to others on a retail basis. Some long term users have become distributors in their own right. Suits us.

In short, most of the people who are ‘whinging’ about the business and/or their upline should understand that they were not prepared to build the business. They did not see sufficient need for it in their lives and so did not apply themselves. I daresay that similar circumstances have occurred in other parts of their lives as well. In Australia, most of these people would be called ‘wankers’.

People who say "..yeah, but…’ are also wanking.

GROW UP! Enjoy your life after Amway, but understand that YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR EVERYTHING THAT YOU ALLOW TO HAPPEN TO YOU.

Kindest regards,
Andrew

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I have visited Sidney Schwartz's site and many others which cast doubts on the Amway business and its claims. Just as an upline of mine said once, "Any business can make a million dollars 'on paper'...", any company or organization can be made to look like a cult, or rip-off.

I will give you credit, though, for at least making a genuine effort to find out the facts. Many of the statements you make about the business are totally accurate, and you have the common sense to admit where there are things you might not have all the information you need. Because of this, I feel it is worth responding to you.

I am an Amway distributor in Australia, and am linked to one of the large systems in the USA. I have been in the business for four years, and am only now just qualifying at the 6% level. After spending easily in excess of $10,000 on the business in different ways, and having not built much of a relationship with my upline, you would think that I qualify as one of Sidney's new disciples...not a chance.

I will deal with a few of your points in summary (admitting I have only had a quick read of your articles):

THE DUN & BRADSTREET CREDIT RATING

I have heard the Dun & Bradstreet rating line used in presentations a few times, but have only heard it used to prove the Amway Corporation's solvency - nothing more, nothing less. If you haven't already, you need to see how many billion-dollar corporations pay their accounts (all of them) within seven days. I think maybe DuPont was the only other one, but not now (check this out). You have to ask yourself that if a company was interested in money, money, money, why doesn't it hold onto its cash for as long as possible (we are talking serious dollars I'm sure for interest on billions in bank accounts and on Short Term Money Market)?

Even if it is against the rules of conduct to mention it, it is a very valid point - you might like to find out how many multi-levels have come and gone in 40 years, leaving distributors in the hole. Of course, you can't compare yourself with business that don't exist anymore.

EMERALD & DIAMOND INCOMES

It is inaccurate to use Amway's SA-4400 (or whatever) to analyse incomes for distributors. Just like comparing McDonald's and Burger King, the method of operation is more important than the product in most cases. Organisations which are substantial (such as Yager, Britt, Dornan or Schwartz - no relation, I'm sure - in Europe), are based on very good principles of duplication, as you know.

Some systems guage their growth on the number of applications signed, some on product volume, and some on tape and book numbers. But for the big ones, the result is usually the same - by the time someone has qualified at the Emerald or Diamond level, there is at least one or two 'trunk legs' with usually a large number of directs (or Emeralds and even Diamonds) in it. To give you an example, my upline diamond is believed to have about 200 directs in his organization. In my estimation of his background and growth in the business, he probably had at least 100 by the time he qualified as a Diamond. Now, there are good Emerald business and bad emerald businesses, but I heard it said once that a leg is only really a leg once it has an Emerald in it. If you are talking about incomes, talk about what the leadership considers "real" businesses, and put an emerald in each leg, not a direct.

I've seen directs and pearls say things about income potential which are inaccurate...but they pay the price in credibility and therefore in growth in the long term.
By the way, when someone who is a direct or ruby comes to you with their hard-luck story about the business "not working for them", that's my personal (not indoctrinated) opinion. I don't care if they've built a bigger group than I have, if they haven't got an emerald broken in at least two legs, they aren't in the REAL professional networking zone, i.e. to me they have no credibility.

One more note on incomes of qualifying distributors - If you are really qualifying properly as an Emerald or Diamond, you have a swag of side volume going - not just direct volume. It was reputed that Ken Stewart (hi to anyone in his group) had a further 67 legs outside his Crown Ambassador business to which he was paying bonuses. As my upline Diamond says "Don't underestimate what you will need to do to get this built."

NEW PIN WINNERS IN US TERRITORIES

My God - no directs in Guatemala !!?

I think you'll find the true numbers on Diamonds in Amway to be around 800-900 worldwide (just a guess but should be close).

INCOME FROM TAPES, BOOKS AND FUNCTIONS

I'm always puzzled by this - the fact that people make money on tools is IN OUR FIRST NIGHT LITERATURE that we give to prospects. Don't forget that being in the tools business does not make you a direct - being in the AMWAY business does. Therefore, the Amway business is the horse, the tools are the cart.

The Australian Tax Office (like your IRS, only they don't where Ray-Bans), is fully appraised of the Amway business operations, including tools, and allows tax deductions on tapes, books, etc only after a suitable level has been reached in the Amway business.
It's probably more legal than you might think.

My upline diamond stood up on stage at an open meeting one night in front of distributors and prospects, held up a tape and said "Do you REALLY think it costs six dollars to make and distribute one of these tapes? Of course not - it's the INFORMATION that we sell for six dollars."

So what happens to the profits? Well, I know for a fact that for two of the biggest organizations in Australia (IDA - part of the Yager system - and Network 21) use that money partly to fund incentive trips for distributors. For about 10 years, IDA head Bert Gulick paid for any couples who qualified (at or around direct level, roughly speaking) to travel to Hawaii for a week. Ever costed flying in distributors from the UK, New Zealand, Australia, Asia and putting them up in a good hotel for a week, plus flying in other Diamonds etc. at your own expense? Network 21 I believe have done the same. Now, add to that the bonuses already paid to directs, and that's an amazing deal.

I know for a fact that Schwartz in Europe does similar things, as do all the others, I'm sure. For the most part, a lot of that money is re-invested in the people who have worked hard. I know (and a lot don't) of a Diamond who put approx US$100,000 of his own money into hosting a weekend for a small group of his directs. If you had the opportunity of following some of the Diamonds around, and they don't know you're watching, you'd find that most are the real deal. Believe me, I've checked.

This gets to the point that Sidney Schwartz and a lot of the complainers just don't get - THIS BUSINESS PAYS YOU AT THE END OF THE MARATHON, NOT THE BEGINNING. Life does not owe you anything, and if it does owe you, it ain't going to pay up soon. The business is the same as any other commission-based business, i.e. pay on results. Amway and the organizations around the world do not consider you to be a professional networker of any form until you reach at least the direct level.

CHRISTIAN VALUES SHOVED DOWN YOUR THROAT

One statement answers that:

"If you believed as strongly in your own beliefs as they do in theirs, it wouldn't bother you."
There is no requirement to be a Republican or Christian or whatever in the business - in fact, most organizations are very stand-offish about it, which is why they have an optional Christian service on Sunday mornings after functions. I go to all of those services, but I don't go to Church - no-one has ever tried to get me to their Church or anything like that. But let's face it - if you really believe in God, and you really believe it's a matter of life and death, it's going to be hard for them to keep their mouth shut.

I find it incredible that people complain about what they've given and that they didn't get anything in return. The principle of giving is to give, not to get. As I said, I've spent a lot of money on things where my upline said "Don't be hasty..." but I spent it anyway. Amway did not cost me that money, I did. Last time I looked, you needed to be of legal age to get into Amway. I think that a lot of people should grow up and think for themselves once in a while.

There's a lot more that I could go on about, but I'll leave it there - it's getting long-winded.
You have my e-mail address, please feel free to respond with questions, etc.
I would be more than happy to correspond with any people who have questions or concerns about the business. There doesn't seem to be much of a recourse for people who want the other side of your "other side".

For people with questions or concerns, they can email me on ****** - I'd prefer to stay anonymous to not upset people by using comparisons, etc. Don't worry, I'm not going to prospect you (which is probably why I'm only 6%!)

Take care Charles!

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http://www.mlmsurvivor.com/posts/post11.htm

Re: Network 21

I am in Australia and was recently approached by someone regarding "a business opportunity." From what I've read so far this is a very familiar sales pitch. Thankfully I did not meet with this person at my residence as they requested. During our meeting it became clear that it was Amway, re-named 'Network Twenty One.' I previously knew very little. I am naturally cautious and quite prudent in my financial dealings, but I was willing to give this person my ear. What started to bother me, was not any preconceived ideas on Amway, as I knew nothing, but rather the person standing before me. He was rushed when I met him, and could only offer me thirty minutes in our meeting. He raced through the plan, but told me NOTHING of the products. He had all sorts of great brochures of success stories (strangely no failures were mentioned), spoke of points and percentages, pyramid-like profits, and so on. He paused really only at the beginning to establish my vision of life ahead, a brief summary of my hopes and aspirations. After that he had a plan, and he stuck to it. He constantly looked at his watch. At one moment you felt esteemed, he saw potential in you ... for this business opportunity. At another, you felt like a cog in a machine as he methodically chimmed out a well honed pitch, whilst keeping one foot out the door for a swift exit to the next 'business meeting' with another one-of-a-kind person. Part of me envied his drive and wondered what had given him this new lease on life. Another part of me was afraid of finding myself being like him, so driven that you fail to 'really' communicate, really relate with the people you're with. I have only had one meeting. Yes I am cynical and suspicious. Yes it is far too early for me to truly make a wise judgement on this man or the message he brings. I will listen, maybe one more time, but I feel that it is not for me, and I question its impact on him. However that is someting he must decide. You see in all that he presented to me, I never saw any long term plan. It was all so very short term. So very temporal. Just last night I found myself reading the Bible. It was the book of Habakkuk, chapter 3, "Though the fig tree does not bud and there are no grapes on the vines, though the olive crop fails and the fields produce no food, though there are no sheep in the pen and no cattle in the stalls, yet will I rejioce in the LORD, I will be joyful in God my Savior." My notes went on to add, "there is nothing wrong in finding pleasure in the good things money can buy. but we should never rely on them for happiness. If our fulfillment depends on material possessions, we are crushed when we lose them. But if our joy is found in the Lord, nothing can disrupt it, not even economic distress. Those who trust in the Lord can rejoice. . . even in poverty." The man I met from Network 21 did not have joy, but he anxiously persued it's distant relative. . . happiness. Author Tim Hansel quotes, "whereas happiness is an emotion, easily flowing up and down, joy is an attitude, it is that deep centred knowledge that God is in control of every aspect of my life." This is long term planning. This is eternal. Nothing beats the life insurance policy that Jesus died to give us, and we can accept by grace, without works. May we all come to know the inner peace of being networked with our Creator. A friend in Australia

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http://www.amquix.info/feedback/amway_email_22.html
Scott,

I stumbled across your website today as I searched for a direct email link to Amway, so as to cancel my subscription to tapes and books. You have provided the answers to dozens of questions I put to my upline over the past 6 months and which he could not answer because he " doesn't know the absolute details about that, but don't worry about it, just show the plan !"

My net search came about because I simply cannot find the correct Tools link phone number in any of the literature received from my upline. These tapes & books have bled $1000 from my family & I over the past 12 months for a return of around $42.00. That is not a gripe, simply a fact, we didn't show the plan more than 20 times, sponsored 2 people only - one of these is our baby sitter who " got in " because she said that '' if we say it is a good thing then it must be good" and so we can't say that we have really let the system work for us or that we have given Amway a serious push. Similar to many others, we effectively gave up after only 3 months effort.

My reason for mailing you is not to regurgitate all that you already know, it is this: to tell of how a mature 47 yr old business person has somehow allowed myself to be influenced by an associate and to get involved in Amway, against my better judgement. Then, 12 months later to find I am greatly disappointed at what I thought should have been a fantastic opportunity.

My heart tells me that the Amway business plan is great, I love the residual income concept and yes, I want to spend more time with my family and even like the idea of helping other people: that would be different for me, after the cut & thrust of the business world and the dog-eat-dog approach.

My head says something quite different: be careful about believing the hype, why is it that I am embarrassed to tell people that I am in Amway, don't get sucked in by these apparent losers, how come there aren't any new diamonds in Australia in the last 3-4 years, why has Amway Australia's turnover dropped at least $50 million since 1992/3, why has my upline not been able to achieve direct level after 3.5 yrs of driving all over the town 4-5 nights a week and half of every weekend as well ?

Why don't I want to spend time with a group of people I hardly know who seem to have a vocabulary of about a hundred words only, mostly to tell me continually that they love me, they believe in me, that I can do it, you just need to keep going to the functions etc. etc. For the first time in my life, I found my self-esteem in question: what is wrong with me that I seem to doubt every " fact" that is stated by these self developed experts up there on a stage? Why do I cringe and find it hard to clap and smile non-stop at functions, how is it that I seem to be the only person that cannot believe the 2nd rate garbage that spews out of their mouths. Why am I embarrassed to contact people about Amway, to sell them the concept? Why is it that I cannot see the same vision as my upline does in terms of the internet " explosion" that is being predicted? Why would anyone need to join Amway to do home shopping when it is looking to be much easier and, I think, less costly to shop online at Woolworth's? Why is it that try as I might I cannot find one previously successful businessperson who has found they needed to get into Amway? They appear on tapes but I have not seen one such person anywhere as yet. Why do I have serious reservations about Amway being something that I can retire on & depend upon for lifetime support? You have answered many of these questions today.

My experience is one of being a frustrated black sheep, unable to get any real facts on this business from upline, being told that perhaps I am just too afraid to have a serious go at Amway. Yes, I am afraid, I have experienced traditional business with all of its highs and lows and understand risk and reward. I am afraid to trust in people I hardly know, without hard evidence of the successes that they have supposedly achieved.

They all seem to drive 2nd hand rust bucket cars, live in cheap houses and have never been in business for themselves before Amway. That is not intended to put these people down, simply to illustrate that I have little faith in the life experiences of these people being sufficient for me to trust in them and blindly do as I am told.

It hurts to admit that I have been sucked in, fooled, especially at my age. But having been burnt in the past by opportunities that looked a little too good to be true, they always are of course, I have been worried about simply trusting in these new business partners and in the actual Amway system from day one. As you well know, their techniques of persuasion are good, very good, and after a short time one's suspicions & doubts slowly fade as the system of persuasion takes hold. For a time I did follow the system of tapes & books seriously and became influenced by some of the thinking and propaganda. But the lack of evidence of any real success by my upline, the admission from my upline direct that he was in for 9 years before achieving direct, the evidence of real struggle by almost everyone in the business and the strange Christian fundamentalist undertones running through the whole Amway structure caused me to eventually lose faith in the business.

I think now that the Amway system does appeal to a certain type of person : those of us that are "dreamers" at heart and seem to be ready and waiting for the Yager statement that " the facts don't count " and are looking for a better way to make a dollar and to live our lives. But some of us also know our own weaknesses and are on the look out for hidden traps when something appears to be a bit too good. I am sad that I won't be going on with Amway, it has affected me deeply, but I also know that I am not suited to be part of the Amway church and am lucky to be breaking a way at an early stage like this, it would be awful to admit defeat after many years.
You have obviously become the recipient of many peoples confessions and the site for pouring out of hearts: that is good in itself, since most of us have no-one who understands this experience to talk to, so I say thank you for reading all of this and I wish you luck in the future.

Regards,

Russell

Scott,

Thanks for your prompt response: for your information, I am calling from Canberra in Australia. The Yager system has one Emerald, 4-5 Directs and I guess around 100-150 IBO's here. There are other Amway organizations but I am told that the Yager group comprises about 70% of Amway turnover in OZ.

The city of Canberra has a population of 250,000 and is the Capital city of Oz, the seat of our Federal Government. Average wages here are very low, most people earn $40,000 to $50,000 tops. Professionals earn $90,000 to $120,000. Canberra is a real government town, a little like Washington DC I am told, not a lot of money around, people are low to middle income earners, 50% are public servants.

To answer some of your questions: I am able to pay for tapes direct to the Amway corporation, they now have taken over the operations and collection of money from IDA, although when I cancelled yesterday I spoke to an IDA person in the IDA office within the Amway center in Sydney. There doesn't appear to be any strings attached so far in canceling, we shall see what happens in practice. Payment is usually made by Amway direct debiting my bank account once a month, they have always been most professional in all transactions. But it is costing around $100 per month for 4-5 tapes & the book of the month. The books are okay, but a bit "wet", they seem to be mostly written by Christian types, and consist of a lot of hype.

I got caught up by the excitement of being able to retire in 2-5 years on reasonable money. The " promise " of $150,000 as a diamond looked good, I have been able to earn around $200,000 annually for the past 5 years but have to work very hard in my Civil Engineering business. The idea of " secure, reliable and passive " income really got me going. I did believe that in 5 yrs I would be sleeping in every morning and not going off to work. I was told by my sponsor that a lot of business people and professionals were joining up, that we would be able to speak regularly to the upline Diamond - Trevor Chatham, and that it would only take 6 months to go direct. None of this is true of course. We never met Chatham, I didn't find any successful business types involved and our sponsor's upline " Silver" has been in for 8 yrs and simply cannot seem to get to Direct.

Whenever I expressed doubt about whether I would be able to achieve the results we hoped for, and asked why nobody else in my upline had achieved very much and therefore, why would I be any different to those people, I was told that the system wasn't as good before as it is now and the " new " approach is setting the world on fire. Is any of this familiar ? The thing that amazes me is that the guys did genuinely seem to believe their own spell, either that or they are completely naive and cannot bring themselves to admit that they may in fact fail for a lot longer yet.

I know that you are probably a very busy person and perhaps don't have time to read all of this stuff, but here is the real reason that I became disillusioned: on my list of names I had people that I wouldn't dare to approach until much later on when I had achieved some results, you know how that goes. One person is a business associate of mine, he is hugely successful and was the person who was Construction Director of the new Parliament house building here in Australia back in 1988. He is probably the biggest name in the Building industry here, he is regularly on National TV business shows, Chairman of several major billion dollar companies and in 1990 received the Order Of Australia award - this award is the highest award given out for civic duties / service in this country since the Left wing governments scrapped the British system of knighthood's some years ago.

So, get the picture, he is full of his own importance but a real nice guy, very smart, a high achiever. My sponsors upline asked to look at my list and saw the name of my associate - he also had met him in the past in Canberra. I grudgingly allowed upline star to call Mr Big, and in fact he was able to get him along to an open. It was held in Sydney, I wasn't able to attend that night. I was doing business with Mr. Big at the time ( not any more ! ) and the very next day received his call - " how dare you give out my name etc. etc. I cannot believe the evangelical crap that con-man was dishing up to all of those poor idiots, how can people get sucked in by that nonsense etc. etc. I hope that you aren't involved Russell, why did you give out my name..... "
I got the biggest serve from him of all time of course. And the phone has gone cold since then, he no longer calls me, which I am a bit pissed about.

Now, I didn't mind the walloping but I did mind being embarrassed that I might be involved in the scheme - up to that point I had believed that this thing might work, but I have a lot of respect for Mr. Big and was shocked by his response to the open meeting. It was at that point that I started to question why had I gotten involved at all, was it a con, what had I missed and how could I have allowed myself to be drawn into something that Mr. Big was able to see through immediately. My sponsor and his upline immediately closed ranks and claimed that Mr. Big was too stressed out over his day to day business dealings and he simply failed to understand how fantastic this opportunity really is. That was it for me, I lost total faith in the whole game.

Okay Scott, thanks for your time, this has been quite therapeutic for me actually, as perhaps you can tell. I must confess that I am still disappointed that I am not going to be an Amway Diamond, I really wanted that part of it, amazing isn't it ? Finding your site has made me understand things a lot more clearly, I think I did basically suspect many of the things you have covered on your site, but had no one to verify that my thinking was probably close to the mark. For that I thank you, if there is some way I can assist here, then please let me know what it is. I will follow through on the other Item shortly.

Regards,

Russell

I do not have any current figures on Amway Australia, I don't seem to be able to find their share market listing either. However, I intend to follow that one through and will send the data to you in due course.

Amway is really on the nose here, there has been an increase in interest since A2K was started - that is the internet system that followed your Quickstar, the e-commerce story has sucked in a lot of people, ourselves included, but I gather from talking to others that people are not staying in for long, I predict that it won't take long and everyone will know that the deal is much the same as before.

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http://www.mlmsurvivor.com/posts/post36.htm

Re: Amway

Dear Sir,

I don't know if I should laugh, cry or jump off the nearest building... obviously I've been reading all the Amway related information over the past few days and I just had no idea. Ive been a distributor for nearly four years and as you can imagine an unsuccessful one, what was I thinking (actually I wasnt) After being trained for so long not to have a "pity party" or be "negative", I'm finding this difficult so bear with me if I wander. I'm feeling so many different emotions right now I don't really know where to start. I feel sick and embarressed, I really thought I could help people and make a difference but all I was really doing was making my upline rich. Ive been on Amvox, SOT, BOM the works and even sold household items to get to a major function about 1000K's away. I've been a go-getter, done most things they told me to do and still failed, I was told to sponsor up, be more consistent it never occured to me that it might be the "systems" fault that this business wasnt working. After reading your site I feel relief and sadness that I wasn't only one Amway happened to......I dont feel like such a loser now. A small message to Amway Distributors bagging this web site, your not doing yourself any favours, you do actually sound like cult members and I should I know its exactly the same way I sounded only a few months ago. Go and ask your upline about the "tools scam" I did and I got an honest answer but then she justified it by saying, well until we go Diamond we can't change anything hmmmmmm. Don't listen to tapes for a month or attend any functions and see what happens oh and watch some TV. To all the people who hate Amway Distributors I say fair enough, in our defense though most of us thought we were going to do something good and honest, we were wrong. I spent over $15 000 trying to build my business and yes Im bitter and hurt but I'm also starting to feel free you can't believe the relief you feel when you say NO MORE. Two people in my group have renewed their distributorships this year, one of them is my Dad, is there a kind way to break this news because like me he has no idea either. Just so you know, this crap happens in Australia to and yes I'm part of Yaegers group. Thanks for letting me have my say I really needed it.

All the best and keep up the good work. Soon to be former Ambot *s*

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http://www.mlmsurvivor.com/posts/post87.htm

Re: Amway

My name is ** my husband * and I are Amway Members in Australia. I have read My Stroy and can understand the what the Lady went through. We had a similar experience with the business but in a different group. We are now in the Network 21 system. Which encourges you to attent all functions and to purchase the bbok and tapes. But to do so not at any expense to your self's. By retailing products. The year is now 2000, and Amway it self has changed. They have made some mistakes and learned from them. No-one denies that they have faults just like any business. But the problem in My story was with her group not Amway as they provide not training or orgainse functions. That is purly done by the Diamond you are attached to. It would be off a great interest to you to check out the Newtwork 21 system. As we donot make our money from the tools, we only cover costs. Our income comes directly from PV & BV via members by want goods and services they want on line. I think before you go public with this you really need to find out the facts on both sides of the coin. * & I have look at both sides. As we have a very successful business not associated to Amway or Network 21, and feel that we can help others more through the Network 21 system. Please keep an open mind. I did not and learned the hard way. I only want the truth to be know, so please look at both sides. I know there are some Diamonds out there that are making money by promoting the business the wrong way, but that happens in every orgainsations (the catholic church, the Salvation Army, the Government and so one) but it is not the orgainsations but the people in those groups at the time. You can email Network 21 for assistance www.network21.com.\
Yours faithfully

Let the truth be know.
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http://wwwhtmlgear.tripod.com/gw/guest/control.guest?u=dreamsteal

Im sure this will probably not be shown as you would prefer to have ANTI-AMWAY messages only but I will write it anyway. I myself am an ex-Amway distributor and it shocks me to read the kind of dribble that some people write. Any ex-distributor who goes about giving Amway a bad name, I believe is doing so to hide the fact that they werent good enough to make it. YOU DIDN'T TRY HARD ENOUGH!! And youre just scapegoating to make yourselves feel better. OK I admit it, I didn't try hard enough either, but it gave me the confidence to return to study and live out a lifelong DREAM of Managing a Vineyard. Without the kind of support and motivation that the Amway system gives, I wouldnt have done that. I know of at least three other ex-distributors who would say the same thing. So have a good think about what your saying before you saay it and dont just go jumping on the negativity bandwagon to help with your loss of pride

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http://wwwhtmlgear.tripod.com/gw/guest/control.guest?u=dreamsteal

Working great for me and my family and friends. No one tells you what you have to buy. Over spending and buying what you don't need is not the businesses fault, people do it in stores all of the time.Maybe you did not choose the right system or the right upline for the help that I have received. I am making money and have attended some great FREE trips before I have even reached Direct. Like any business one ventures into you only get out of it waht you are willing to put back in.Making money for other people in a job is for worse than spending a little bit of effort in your own business to have the freedom to do what you choose. If its not Amway it should be somethinig else. Amway is merely a Vehicle to get what you want, Like a newsagency or something. 80 percent of small business fail in the first 5 years but people don't bag that.

Amway Testimonials - Current and Potential IBO's Part 1

These are testimonials submitted to various sites and where the authors were either current IBO's or prospective IBO's at the time. Links to original sources are included.


Mr.Schwartz,

I must confess i do agree with a lot of the replies to your site, i feel that you must be carrying some major grudge against Amway. I do think you should show some of the positive aspects as well. Your information is dated and there is no mention of people like Jim & Nancy Dornan (Network 21). I would Suggest that you talk to and add information from the poistive side of this business and of the people who's lives have changed for the better. Here in Australia my Diamond has given us hope and encouragement not just in building a business but in coping with some major problems in our life. I am a very successful business man and could retire tomorrow without any income from my Amway business but i choose to do the Amway business because I can help people get a better life. I cannot give them money because that does not give self esteem but I can help them become successful in an Amway business and build a life style they can only ever dream about.

I am a unique in the Amway buiness because I tell people to look at "THE AMWAY BUSINESS" as a means of developing a life style. and then I show them that all they have to do is to change their shopping and shop from their own business. Nothing more than that, if they like the products share the expeience with some others and slowly buildup a network. Over a 10 year period anyone can find just 3 people who are interested enough to go to 21% THATS JUST 1 EVERY THREE YEARS! An Emerald income 10 years down the track is still a very good income, over and above what your JOB pays you. I ask you where is the cult in that? where are all the tapes, books and functions in that? It's the distributors choise! I currently average Aust$4000 per month and I have not done anything special except changed my shopping and shared the concept with others. No SCAM, No tricks, nothing but helping people generate a little more income by changing their shopping. GROW UP ALL OF YOU NON-AMWAY PEOPLE. You don't have to con,trick, by sly or be strange about Amway just accept it does work. If you do it professionally and remain proud to be able to help others get a chance for a better life. YES! I am proud to be an Amway distributor just because I can help others... I hope you will wake up one day and realise that this is a business where people will actually help you without ever gaining one cent and still feel proud to call you friend as you grow to success. Everyone can succeed in this Business but you do need the right people to lead you.... Go and Join up be proud of what is and never be ashamed to say "I am an Amway Distributor" GO DIAMOND... You can... anyone can.... 10 Years? Does it matter? Good Luck

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http://www-cgi.cs.cmu.edu/People/dst/Amway/AUS/commen18.htm

I am a single white mail, living in Australia. I attended a private school for 4 years and then did a few years of Ag. Science at Melb Uni. which I failed. After drifting through a few years of being a "wandering Generality" ended up driving cabs and eventually got into communications in the Cab industry.I still remember my first day in the radio room. My training officer asked me ( this was in 1987) why I was working here as my last job had been a lab technician in a private chemistry lab doing water analysis and other very exacting chemical analysis. I failed Chemistry 2 years in a row at Uni ,yet some one was willing to pay me for my good work in the real world. Does this mean I scammed my employer for 5 years? He gave me a great reference when I left. Does this mean they should close down the Melb Uni. Ag. Dept? for failing an intelligent and capable student? Should I sue Melb. Uni for the cost of tools I was OBLIGATED to purchase? Can I claim the seminars(lectures ) were a waste of time? Must I take responsibility for my failure at Uni? Guilty! Yes I failed!My fault.Not theirs , mine.

I asked my training officer why he was working there and he didn't really know either.We became friends over the next few years.In 1994,during March, I was on holidays from work and was at home as finances didnt allow for much time away.

I was bored , broke, alone, cynical, unfulfilled, unchallenged, unambitious, and the black sheep of the family.
The phone rang.............

My former training officer, who had left the company I was still at 7 years later, had recently returned to the company. He was babbling on about some sort of business opportunity and wanted to know if I wanted to have a look at my own business . I respected this guy so I agreed to have a look. I met this bloke up at the local Pub. ie bar. for those of you that aint from a land downunder.

As my friend & I had had the odd night on the grog, I asked him what he would like to drink. It was a warm autumn day. He says a Coffee. I also noted he had a tie on. Something was definately UP. I sat down and this guy showed me an equation which said FS=D+V+W. Which meant Financial Success = A DREAM+ A VEHICLE + WORK.I FOOLISHLY asked him to explain this again and he told me 95% of people know HOW to work but only 5% know why! The 5% that know WHY own 95% of the wealth. This seemed to explain my predicament in life.

Anyway, he showed me this "plan" thing with circles and figures and then tells me the Corporate sponsor was Amway Corp and I said Oh Yeah? He told me I should grab some tapes and listen to them. So I did. The first one was by a guy who had done Vet Science and was a "YAGER DIAMOND"in this mlm network marketing thing. I asked this guy at the end of the plan how you get the circles together in reality and he says show people the plan. I said which people and he said any people. BANG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It took 36 years to happen but I had seen HOPE! In the last 3 years of "going to all the opens , well most of them, every monthly rally, haven't missed a major function,have about 2000 tapes ,I've heard em all too!!! Not just once either,I can sincerely say I Have never been associated with a more sincere, honest , humble, encouraging, practical,and helpful group of individuals in my life. When Dexter Yager speaks, WISE MEN AND WOMEN LISTEN!!!!!!! The Amway business is not on trial.

The vocal among the deriders of this industry or line of sponsorship or whatever your beef is, Some of you will one day be in or back in this business . The opportunity awaits you guys too.........Are you ready?

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www.suburbia.net/~fun/amway/commen20.htm
Dear Sidney

Unfortunately my wife and I have been Australian Amway distributers for the past two years and six months. Through your pages on the internet we have suddenly realised (realized I think in U.S.A) that our investment into the "business" is a scam. We too have been pressured into purchasing tapes, books, meetings, functions, "FREE" Enterprise Days etc. Our major delemma is that we are unsure whether we should cut off completely from the organisation. Many of our previous "discounted" purchases require AMWAY refills such as the water purifier requires AMWAY brand filter refills etc. We have a car and house full of tapes and books.

Do we risk being brainwashed again by this organisation as we have seen good people return to it after previously cutting ties. We have read many letters from people on your pages who remain with Amway but do not purchase educational materials or attend seminars. Are these people telling the truth when they say they are still on their way to success without these things and by just selling a very limited core line of products. Is it true that they can avoid the extreme pressure exerted by upline to by tapes, books, seminars etc. Can this actually be possible?

We really would appreciate your help with these issues.

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www.suburbia.net/~fun/amway/commen38.htm

Great Site,

I had meeting tonight with someone who was trying to push something very similar to Amway, IDA.... to cut the story short he explained that Amway ran some warehouses and did the deliveries but that was the only link to Amway, other wise I would be dealing with IDA, and promoting the service of HSD, home shopping distribution. Is the more to IDA and Amway than what is being made out ? It appears to be an australian duplication of Amway. Hey I was even given three audio cassettes to listen to before requesting further information, if you want a copy you'll have to let me know pretty quick as I'll be sending them back as I got them, unopened that is.

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Mate, repling from Australia where the business has never been better. I respect your rights to create your home page and make the comments you and others have and admire the fact you print both positive and negitative replies, however, I can't help but wonder what ever made you so bitter or maybe just passionate to go to the effort to create such a internet site. Somebody in the business must have worked you over real bad and I'd like to know what they did.

At this stage of the business the profits I have made have not covered the experiences incurred, which is my fault because I haven't put the work in. Having said that the amount I have learned about myself and dealing with others through experiences in this business and the amount I have picked up from the training system have helped me to achieve more success in my career then I believe I could have without joining Amway. This coupled with some great friends I have made, some never continued in the business, more than out ways any expense I have incurred.

Look forward to your reply as to what made you feel the way you do

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www.amquix.info/aus/commen42.htm

Dear Sir,

I can see you have invested a lot of time and resourses into your anti-Amway site. It is good to see that you have such interest in the Amway opportunity.

I feel that you have on your web site, unfortunity to your disadvantage, detracted from what Amway really is. You make claims that Amway is a cult, a Pyamid and so on. These things a totally untrue. It doesn't matter your option on the topic and really you have the right to be wrong and air that option. That is what living in a free country is all about.

The first thing is about a pyamid. Most organisations operate as pyamids. Most companies have a boss, who earns the most and then incomes flow down depending on your level in the company. Also the tradiation distribution system for goods and services in our countries is the same. The Manufacturer sells to the wholesaler who using agents and exporters sell to retailers. Each level of the pyamid makes a cut on each product.

So lets look at the Amway Marketing Plan. It too is set out to reward people for developing a distribution system. The difference is that in Amway it is possible to earn more than your sponsor and upline. That is harder to do in a job. There is nothing illegal in that in both your country and mine, Australia.

As for lack of retailing being a cause to call Amway a illegal pyamid is not a case. Your income is Amway is derived from turnover, not sponsoring people. However it is easier to turnover more with more outlets (or Distributors). Also in Amway, most people benefit from the self use of the 10 000's of different goods and services available. They are not interested in developing a business out of Amway. That's Great! So those who are developing a business then have others in their group that are consumers only (like customers that get a discount). Please tell me what is wrong with this?

Your web site refer to cult activities by Amway distributors. Well I don't know if you have every have a DREAM for anything, but anybody going for something, looks cult like. They are motivatied and driven. And why not, the world would not be as advanced as we are if it was not for DREAMERS, that may even looked like they were in a cult.

The Tapes, Books, Functions, Voicemail and other material that you refer to are option, but also cost a lot less than if you were to use other business systems that are available. Example I attended a weekend function for $AUD120.00 a ticket, during that function we had a silver service dinner, enterainment and several business sessions. The first thing is that no one was forced to buy a ticket. The second is that one of the speakers is an international know speaker on Body Lanuage. Now if I wanted to see him at a function, outside of the support system offered by my Diamond, it would cost me anywhere from $AUD1000 to $AUD5000 for the two hours. I Saved at least $AUD880 and got enterainment and dinner, plus other speakers.

I could go on about the Tapes, Books and Functions that I could attend, but the fact is that by being in the support system, it has saved thousands and my personal development side, plus it has assisted myself at university, developing other business interests and of course it has help developed my Amway business in Australia and overseas. Currently we operate in Australia and Colombia, but are expanding into Europe and North America in the next two years. Please tell me where I can tap into such a business support system, for so little?

I little note here to say that I am not the fastest in the Amway business and I am not finnancially free yet from the business. I am at the lower levels at the moment, but I have a very small organisation that is increasing and when you treat the Amway business as a business not a get rich scheme, you will not be disapointed by the results.

Finnally, I would like to say that, if you are willing I would like to meet you, not about business, but that would be an exciting topic for you. But no seriously I would like to meet you, when I am in North America later next year, so you know who I am as a person and I know who you are as a person. But only if you are Game!!

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http://www-cgi.cs.cmu.edu/People/dst/Amway/AUS/commen43.htm

I am an Amway distributor in Sydney, Australia, with the Network21 organization under the Glenda & Norman Leonard line of (d-diamond) sponsorship.

I also manage a successful telecommunications brokerage, with a small, but dynamic team of consultants. Basically what we do it try to get customers to switch long distance telephone carriers to our preferred vendor, which is * (famous American company) who provides switched telephone services here in Australia. For this we are paid a residual commission, of the reps working with me, I take an over-ride of 1% or 2% of air-time their customers bring in (they thus make most of the money, which is just as well, since they do all the leg-work, getting customers.

What really concerns me about the Amway opportunity is that I cannot get straight answers as to why I am not sponsoring people into the business "you must be doing something wrong" is a common response from my sponsor, as well as her upline directs. My sponsor tells me that the best places to go prospecting is in shopping centres and places like that, but every time we went on a "team call", half-a-days' prospecting brings me one or two business cards, and my sponsor does a little better with 3-4 cards with contacts to follow up and try to drag along to the "Open Plan". This is despite the fact that my sponsor claims to be getting lots of prospects, this is certainly not the case when I am nearby, watching her success rate ("it's a quiet day today, let's do Darling Harbour next week".).

I am very professional in everything I do, and I firmly believe that the Amway Sales and Marketing Plan WORKS - if you can find people who want to run with the idea and follow your footsteps. Two prospects for half- a-days' prospecting, and no guarantee that they will even consider joining the business, let alone come along to the open plan. I can spend half a day prospecting in long distance telecoms, and usually I end up signing up two or three customers on the spot, each earning a residual income of anything upwards of $10 to $15 per month, more if they are a business and spend substantial bucks on international and national calls. I get rid of some 50-100 info packs which I photocopy on my copier as needed, at around 8c/info pack, and down the line another two or three, maybe more sign up.

All you got to do is dress up as to look professional, a suit being preferable, and having professional posture, and people will listen to you and read the information.

I think there is far too much Smoke and Mirrors with the Amway business, and as far as the tools "scam" is concerned, the books are fantastic, especially Shad Helmstetters "American Victory", and many others. But the cassette tapes are a rip-off (at $AUS 6.50 each).

Food for thought: If the tools were such a key part in building your Amway business, why aren't they dirt cheap and sold at cost? The cost of running off cassette tapes couln't be more than a dollar each, and books sold at cost price, with author royalties paid directly to the Author, since most of these books are directed specifically towards people in the Amway business. Hmmmm. Building an Amway business means building BV and PV, otherwise you don't move up the pin-levels, so for the Crown Ambassadors and Diamonds to produce material at low cost would be of benefit to them, but you make a valid point on your site (Brig Hart) that the tools are a great source of profits! No wonder!

9 months and around $2000 invested to make $47 at the 6% pin level. I do long distance, have invested about $1000 in marketing and other business expenses over a three month period to earn a residual income of just over $1000 each month, this almost doubling every month. Which is the better business? My accountant favours the latter.

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www.suburbia.com.au/~fun/amway/commen44.htm

Hmm, it's been interesting scanning the 'net for Amway information, but I have noticed a couple of things -

1. It's nearly all negative2. It's nearly all *not* about Amway - it's about Dexter Yager and his organisation

I thought I'd give my brief comments and experiences from 3 months as a "retread" (I first joined 7 years ago simply for cheap cleaning products as a caretaker) Firstly I've been told that their are 49 different groups supporting the Amway sales and marketing plan. Assuming this is true, Yager's is just one of them, albeit a very large one. The website's continually talk negatively about Amway, but all the negativity seems to only talk about Yager's organisation. When I read entire documents (such as court documents) they often have *positive* statements about the Amway company itself. The only negative is that they've done nothing to stop the "bad" people, something I imagine would be hard to do for any large organisation. In any case, my experiences here in Australia with a group called Network 21 have been nothing but positive. Contrary to what all these pages say -

1) We were told that if we wanted to serious at trying to build the Amway business we'd be looking at at least A$300 in the first few months, ie including the cost of tapes books and meetings.

2) We were told it's *not* easy and that very few people do succeed. Even if you worked hard reasonable returns would take 2 to 6 years.

3) We were told to never lie to people about whether it was Amway or not. In general you should avoid telling people straight off it's Amway, because they associate it with the negative stories we've all heard, not with the positive people of integrity that have been my experience. If they ask, be completley upfront.

4) We were told never to harass people. For a start it makes business sense as people who have to be harrassed into joining are unlikely to do anything and won't be succesful anway.

5) Our upline has regularly lent tapes, free of charge to downline. They've even paid for tickets to seminars if they thought the prospects looked worthwhile. We've been encouraged to buy tapes, books, and meeting tickets, but if we or anyone downline has said no, then that's been fine.
6) I've never heard anyone call anyone who'd dropped out or was not a distributor a loser.

7) We've been helped to budget and told *not* to spend money we couldn't afford.

8) I've barely ever heard God or Jesus or anything else religious mentioned. Hell, I'm an atheist so that would put me right off!

9) heck, we're only 6% and we've been told quite openly that the guest speakers and successful people get paid a packet for their time and tapes

I suppose my point is that this and other websites all ostensibly about Amway, but in fact are not, they are about (in general) one particular "associated" organisation that has little to do with my and many other people's experiences. We don't like that fact that we often can't outright say "I've joined Amway and was wondering if you'd be interested in checking it out", because we know that to many people Amway would mean what your site says it means. We're running with a different dictionary here and I read your site and just shake my head. If I had to deal with thay sort of organisation I'd be suing their butts off too. Thankfully I'm not and I don't, because that's *not* Amway. The transcript of Rich DeVos' "Directly Speaking Tape you have at http://www.teleport.com/~schwartz/directly.htm gives the Amway story, the rest of the site gives the Dexter Yager story.

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http://www.amway.robinlionheart.com/commen56.htm

Hi there to anybody that reads this message

I am a 21yo male from Australia who has been a distributor for about 10 months. Currently i am a university student about to finish a degree in business management. I see Amway as an alternative and supplement to a career. The business and marketing plan is logical and being a logical person I saw a lot of sense in it.

First things first, I will have to say this. I am biased towards AMWAY, no i correct myself towards MY small business. After doing a business plan for an actual business (an internet cafe) which would have cost around AUS$80k-100k with the owner only taking home a salary of $25000 a year compared to my Amway business which cost $100 (KIT) plus tools (tapes, books and functions) probably up to $1000+ with a potential income $30000+ is neglegable to the internet cafe business

After reading many of the comments and countless pages of information contained within this web site i have to question many of the negative comments towards AMWAY. Albeit an educated analysis. Topics i would like to cover are -Cults -Brainwashing -Tools -the percentage of people who make it to the top

Cults >From the various descriptions of the make up of a cult and comparing that to AMWAY i find that they are very different. Fair enough there is a certain amount of pressure to conform to certain practices of conducting business, however when compared to other organisations, what is the first thing a new employee or member is groomed to do, alas adopt the organisational culture. This is mainly done through initial training workshops (classes), literature on the organisation (training manual, workplace health and safety procedures and even employee contracts) and social interaction with current employees. Well low and behold for all the average and normal workers out there, breaking news for you, YOU ARE PART OF A CULT, but thats all right your next door neighbour is part of one too.

As for the christian preaching stuff, people have a choice to listen to that stuff, i myself choose not to. In the times that i have been to functions with church services "fellowship" on the sunday i dont go, therefore i dont have to listen to it. It is as simple as that. I am a christian, yet i do not like church. I did go once (the first time i went to a major function) where there was a minister doing the evangelistic born again christian preaching of "send your $100 dollars now and i will forgive you sermon" (dont take that literally, that is just the view i have of evangelists and born again christians), something that i dont like and against compared to the traditional churches. Therefore the point i am trying to make is i was not and still not forced to listen to christian preachings, to those people that are coerced and "supposedly forced" i must say that you have a weak mind, it wouldnt matter if it was christian or ring a ring a rosies, by the sounds of it you would believe and follow anything aynway.

Brainwashing I can understand why people view (although narrow it is) that AMWAY brainwashes people, however what is brainwashing. Are we not as a western society drummed with brainwashing statements everyday of our lives. Most of us know it as Advertising. How much junk is portrayed and spoon fed to us each day on tv, radio and in the print on to buy this product or to buy that product, to support this service or that service. Yet it is an accepted part of living, how meaningless our lives have become. Also as i have found during my university studies, there is a lot of pressure on the young and older people today in getting a job. Through the 4 years of my studies all i keep hearing is when i graduate i want this job or that job. The whole of the degree that i am doing is geared towards that job in that career. There seems to be no initiative to become entrepreneurs or go out alone and achieve something. To me being bombarded with the constant drone of get a job is brainwashing. I think it should be known that there are other ways of having an income than just getting a job. Whether that be AMWAY or any other sort of MLM organisation, or simply owning a small business. Whatever turns you on, getting a job is not the be all and end all to making money. Another point of brainwashing is the fact that most people believe you have to retire at the age 55-65 after working 35-45 years. How much advertising and endorsement from various sources (government, business and society in general) does this have. I have seen my parents do this, with both now having medical problems in their early 60's, therefore not leaving them that much time to enjoy their retirement. Also with my parents generation, from what i have determined is that they worked towards the pension (social security). To me that is not what i want to do (mainly by the time i am their age there wont be a pension). To me working towards government support is a wasted life (i am not saying that my parents have had a wasted life) you work all your life and still you are under the control of a higher authority, to me that is not a retirement. I ask you all out there that isnt logical, work in a job under someone/thing then retire to the control of someone/thing. Albeit the life of a plebian (which in the current scheme of things most of the working population is heading for or is currently undertaking). The rise to mediocraty by individuals with the subsequent fall of society.

Tools As with any business learning tools are essential to the establishment and continuation of any business. How i know, mainly from asking former employers and during my studies.

Tapes: These contain stories and teaching techniques of how to conduct my business, i will admit some tapes i dont relate to and sometimes find boring (namely the american speakers, nothing personal against americans, it is just their accent i cant handle). Other than that i find that a message that i can not get in a function might be more clearly given in a tape (vice versa). However as was written in Business Review Weekly on the 6th April 1998 (reputable business journal/magazine) it stipulates that every business needs to stimualte and motivate their workforce. Many organisations motivate their employees with cash incentives however as studies have showed this only motivates people to a limited extent and tends to lose its appeal after a certain time. (That is why Frederick Taylor's Scientific Management Principles are on the way out and have been for the last 20 years). Associated AMWAY organisations such as IDA and Network21 motivate their workforce through the stories and business building techniques through people who are successful in the business.

Books: The books are for personal development, although i find it hard to find the time to read due to study commitments (which involves a lot of reading) they are quite enlightening. It is interesting to find many authors of the books that are included in the books of the month, I come across in my studies, eg Stephen Covey "Principle Centred Leadership" and Kenneth Blanchard "Gung Ho". I find more than just references to them within my studies, they are very much the new wave of organisational training across the western world in Total Quality Management and teams approach to organisational structure. Therefore, from my analysis, what AMWAY has been doing for the last 27 years in Australia and 40 years in the US is slowly catching on in the Australian and world corporate scene on a large scale in the last 10 years. I think that is something in itself, to say the least AMWAY was and still is a few decades ahead of the rest. The books are not associated with AMWAY, but on new business concepts as well as relationships with people in general sometimes with a focus on partner relationships (eg Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus). Even if i dont get anything out of a book that i paid for, they usually are a good read anyway. I will ask a question here, What was the message or purposeful meaning you got last time you read a fictional novel, romance story or even a newspaper article? (Remember the old adage, "Dont always believe what you read in the paper")

Functions: Okay i was overwhelmed with the excitement and the energy that are associated with an AMWAY function, however the first few times i went to these functions i was like what the hell is "WRONG" with these people, this is supposed to be a business function. But from what i gathered is that these things are fun, what is wrong with having fun. To all the cronies out there that say they brainwash at these functions i think that they take them too seriously, fair enough you listen to the people tell their story, but most importantly (to me at least) they tell techniques and ways they used to build their business, which i find very useful and interesting. Sometimes when i am down from stress due to other areas of my life, after coming away from a function (whether for business or personal reasons) i am usually rejuvinated or perked up without any artifical stimulant. Also if you sat in a university lecture, you wish you were at an AMWAY function.

Percentage of people reaching the top This will only be short. Question: What is the chance that the organisation that you work for (and provided that you havent reached it already or a family member of the owners), that you will become CEO or a member of the board of directors? (you know the people who make policy and you hardly ever see or know who they are) What is the chance of an organisation like MacDonalds for you to go from kitchenhand to CEO in 5 Years (to hell with it 15 years)? I guarantee that there is hardly a chance in hell for you to do that, So my only comment here is WAKE UP to those people that dont believe they can make a 6 figure income in 5 years through their "Franchise" (Distributorship) of the AMWAY organisation.

Well thanks for letting me put my view across, I hope you paste it to your web site and someone reads it. Dont forget please leave my email address displayed so i can get some feedback from those that do read it.

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www.amquix.info/feedback/feedback_oct02.html
Dear Scott,

I want to thank you for the excellent information provided on your site, and share my experiences with Network 21 in Australia. Reading through your material was a real slap in the face, which I needed. It is embarrassing to admit how easily I almost fell for it.

This thing was started by Jim and Nancy Dornan, who left Amway (so we are told) with their own vision. They came across as creepy and false in what I saw of them.

I got as far as attending a preview and a weekend conference. Along the way was a bombardment of tapes from my uplines.

In the business preview, a lot of references were made to Robert (Rich Dad) Kiyosaki, whom they say endorses network 21. He doesn't really, however. The most he says is to consider it (I listened to his tape).

Half the talk was spent describing Kiyosaki's "cashflow quadrant." They rushed over their system, which is confusing. I was told by my upline that "you need to go through it about four times before you'll get it."

Members have to pay $6 to attend (guests are free) to cover the cost of the room hire. They also have to drive people to and from the meetings. At the end, a bunch of members deliver their rehearsed "success stories."

The message: There is something wrong with you if you don't get onboard the e-commerce revolution, you don't want to miss out, etc.

The weekend conference was scary, my first impression being "American Evangelists." However their enthusiasm wins you over, and soon enough I was pumped up. There is something artificial and forced about everything that happens though.

the American guests' motivational stories are peppered with ideas stolen from people like Brian Tracy. It is also dumbed down somewhat. However it's impossible not to get inspired by them. They focus on the changes to lives they make, and to the help they are providing to people in third world countries - where they are expanding.

They also have aligned themselves with World Vision, a charity, which sponsors kids in third world countries.

The seating was cramped and uncomfortable for everyone, except diamonds and platinums. Speakers made a real point of this over and over again. They get plush seats and have attendants bring them drinks. Everyone was urged to sign up for the yearly conference and shell out $170. On top of that they pushed their tapes and books. Just about every Diamond has their inspirational story available on tape, which you have to buy.

They stressed the importance of the "Why" as opposed to the "How" and how to use your goals to drive your business to success. i.e. emotional involvement.

Their system is focussed on getting enough people in your frontline. They want you to go out and start calling your top prospects before you even know that you are doing. They vaunt their "business support" material, which really just teaches you how to convince people to join. However it does build confidence, if only because the phone calls are so well scripted and designed to overcome specific objections. You are encouraged to redirect Amway questions. The "list" is all-important. You must find and get your top frontline people as soon as possible. it is all a rush. You are encouraged to hook your family first. They have meetings where they coach you and get you to start making calls.

My upline said: "With experience, you'll begin to see everyone you meet as prospects." I found this happening to me, which is disturbing to say the least. You are encouraged to use their system, and not your own ideas. "Is it duplicable?" they always say. You are supposed to get out of the way.

An important book is called "personality plus" which is supposed to help you identify and relate to people as "phlegmatic" and "melancholic" - terms based on a medieval belief system. It is hard to believe anyone could still subscribe to this crap.

The Amway questions are handled like this (word for word, I am not paraphrasing):

during one-on-one:
"We have a single service provider.(hushed voice) Amway. (quickly moving on to something else)" at business preview:

"The company has completely restructured itself during the past two years, to take advantage of the e-commerce revolution" "Amway is one of the many companies we deal with."

"Most people only have an idea of what Amway was 40 years ago."
You are encouraged to achieve a 100% household usage. The manipulative term "if you are serious about the business" is used to get you to buy tapes and attend events. They even throw in stuff about the sacrifices made by your upline, how they put you first. It's impossible to have a conversation with these people that does not involve Network 21.

This organization selling false hope and preying on people at weak times in their lives. The more people know about it, the better. I hope my info has been of help to you.

John.